Why the resurrection is not a re-creation

Posted: December 1, 2011 in false teachers, Watchtower Society
Tags: , , , , , , , , ,

What follows is some of the discussion I hadwith a Watchtower Member.  The topic was the CONDITION OF THE DEAD

Watchtower Deception.

From a Biblical perspective the dead do not cease to exist after dead.  The body dies but the soul lives on..  However as we will see the Watchtower reject any concept of an immortal soul, let alone the soul surviving dead?  The ramification of such teachings has wide-spread theological implications.

I will post some of the conversation so as my readers can catch  the drift that lies behind such thinking. I will not quote all that was discussed as you would here for hours.  So I will try to post the main topics as they came up.

Saeed (WATCHTOWER) It talking about the condition of the dead.

UCMINISTRIES Job 19:26-27 And [though] after my skin [worms] destroy this [body], yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; [though] my reins be consumed within me. THE BOOK OF JOB IS CONSIDERED ONE OF THE OLDEST.

UCMINISTRIES Even he knew that the dead live on after death.

Saeed (WATCHTOWER) His hopes for resurrection, James.

Saeed (WATCHTOWER) When you say the dead continue to live, then the dead must be conscious.

UCMINISTRIES No recreation here boys. The soul lives on after the body is destroyed. But one day the soul will be joined back with a body fitted for eternity.

Saeed (WATCHTOWER) I can’t understand why you limit God’s capability of resurrecting the actual person from nothing.

You can see here that this Watchtower member tries to argue that the dead are “re-created “  or as he states quite clearly ”RESURECTED THE ACTUAL PERSON FROM NOTHING.”  Which means upon the death of the Body the soul also ceases.  Poof Gone!!!!!

Saeed (WATCHTOWER) The lies in belief in the immortality of the soul. Please give me a faithful translation of Gen 2:7

Math 10: 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell

It seems pretty obvious in this verse that we are not to fear someone who can kill the physical body but is unable to kill the soul.  But if the soul does not survive the death of the body then we would fear its demise.

So was Jesus lying?  NO. 

UCMINISTRIES Job certainly had this hope that he personally would see his redeemer. Not his clone.

Saeed (WATCHTOWER) I agree, no clones, James.

Saeed (WATCHTOWER) What is the Hebrew word for soul James?

UCMINISTRIES Cloning means that God judges a new creation for something which it never earned.

UCMINISTRIES That’s called injustice. In which case you are simply spouting the theology of the atheist. On death nothing and nothing comes back.

Saeed (WATCHTOWER) So you’re limiting God’s power when he has to resort to clones.

UCMINISTRIES So the watchtower is actually lying then are they not?

Saeed (WATCHTOWER) The atheist has no resurrection hope, James.

UCMINISTRIES Can a person who has never sinned be judged for sinning. For no other reason than he looks like the person in question. Is that justice?

UCMINISTRIES All will be resurrected and given a body to fit their soul. Heaven or ghenna. To be precise.

Saeed (WATCHTOWER) You’re talking about clones, we’re not.

I used the term “CLONE” here to give significance that what they are talking about was an actual cloning  (re-creation) of someone who once existed but has ceased to exist,  OTHER THAN IN GOD MEMORY.

Let’s take a closer look at this scenario.

Saeed (WATCHTOWER) What’s clear is you don’t believe that God can resurrect someone out of nothing.

Saeed (WATCHTOWER) I can only agree with cloning on one premise: that God is powerless to resurrect person who ceased to exists. Do you buy that?

This Watchtower member tries to use Adam as an example of God creating someone out of nothing as the basis for the future resurrection.

Saeed (WATCHTOWER) Exactly James, Adam has no existence before he was created. The same condition apply at death–no existence!

UCMINISTRIES Making it clear that Soul survives the destruction of the body. It goes to either hell or paradise. Waiting for the final  resurrection of the dead.

Now for the Watchtower member, there has to be a leap that the same person, who has died, is actually the same person that is recreated from NOTHING! 

So let us examine this.  Let’s say we have ADAM No 1.  In the process of time he physically died and was buried.  Now according to Saeed this same person has ceased to exist.  So what is resurrected?.  Nothing because there is nothing to resurrect.  So GOD FROM MEMORY CREATEs another Adam that looks and feels and thinks like the first Adam

Lets call this new creation ADAM No 2.  What do ADAM 1 and ADAM 2 have in common?  Nothing other than ADAM 2 was created to be like ADAM 1.  Other than that there is no connection.  Now comes the tricky part.  Say God has to create Jack the ripper or some other evil mass murderer.  Jack the ripper no 2 has no earthly connection with Jack the ripper 1,  So has no history of committing murder, or anything because he is to all intents and purpose is a new creation.  Now in order to create something out of nothing in what fashion does God create him.  Good or Evil?  Perfect  with or without SIN?  To be an exact copy of the original God must create him as the original.  With SIN and WICKEDNESS in his heart.

God creates in this example a mass Murderer called Jack the ripper.

Yet God who is HOLY and PERFECT has just created a creature of evil.  Does that not make God the creator of evil?  Now how does God judge this poor miserable sinner?  With the very same thing he had previously …. NONE EXISTENCE.  But if Gods judges him for the sins of Jack the ripper no 1, then that’s an injustice because Jack the ripper no 2 has never committed those sins.  He has only just been created by God.    

This is important:  If God then creates wickedness does that not make him the author of wickedness.  How can he judge what he himself has created?  So now we are into a new ball game.

God would have to Judge himself for the very thing he is about to judge others with.

Jack the ripper no 1 gets no accountability for his deeds before God, whilst another fact simile is made accountable for something God becomes the author off.

For there to be a personal accountability on the day of Judgement, the person who committed those sins has to be the ones to be judged.  Not another who may or may look like the person in question.  Otherwise there can be no justice.

Hebrews 6: 18 That by two immutable things, in which [it was] impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us

What hope is there if we only exist in this live, and in the next someone else gets the reward that we strived for?  What good is running the race if someone else gets the reward?

Like all false teachings it must inevitable strike at the heart of the Gospel and the atoning work of Jesus.  If the dead are not raised then the atoning work of Christ becomes meaningless.  Its becomes a mockery and each and every disciple who gave their own personal lives died so in futility.  They are gone and only some fact simile gets to be rewarded for the suffering of its predecessor. 

Heb 12: 1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

If we were to believe the watchtower then this verse would become meaningless.  There would be no cloud of witnesses to spur us on.

Hebrews 12: 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

This too would be a futile gesture because Jesus was never physically raised from the deadWhat appeared to the disciples was simple a fact simile of the man who died. Never mind the fact that God would be guilty of mass deception on the very disciples who had been faithfully following Jesus. 

Luke 24: 7 Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.

Such a deception is cruel indeed.

So who stands at the right of the father? ……..// A fact simile (clone) . 

Now the ramifications of this means that we would have to chuck out most of the Book of Hebrews.  For how can we have a high priest interceding for others when the one who had to endure the suffering died on the cross and is now gone?   The fact simile would in fact have never experienced what the real Jesus experienced.  So the ramifications of Watchtower teachings  just go on and on.

Heb 11: 1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen

Here again what hope is there if the people who ran in faith never get to enjoy the fruits of what they ran for.  It turns Hebrew 11 into some macabre joke.  They run but another will take their place.  Their lives were cut short and another will live. 

John 10: 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father

10: 18 No man has taken it away from me, but I surrender it of my own initiative.  I have authority to surrender it, and I HAVE AUTHORITY TO RECEIVE IT AGAIN…” (NWT)

Now unless Jesus survived the death of his physical body how can he be in a place to raise it up again.  Otherwise the Watchtower makes Jesus out to be a liar.  Even the watchtowers own version (New World Translation) proves them wrong .

1 Peter 3: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water

How can Jesus preach to those who have already ceased to exist and that includes himself.  So are we to believe NO preaching took place because nothing survives death.  Utter foolishness.  Do we now throw Peters writing out because of Watchtower foolishness.

It is interesting that the watchtower translation of this verse reads.

1 Peter 2: 18-20 Why even Christ died once for all time concerning sins,  a righteous person for the unrighteous ones, that he might lead you to God, he being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit.    In this state also he went his way and preached  to the spirits in prison 20 who had once been disobedient  when the patience of God was waiting in Noah’s day while the ark was being constructed, in which a few people , that is eight souls were carried safely through the waters.(NWT)

Despite the fact that the Watchtower has messed about with the translation there are still elements where we can still prove things .    The acknowledgement of his death and then as I have underlined.  “HE WILL LEAD YOU TO GOD”  How can someone who no longer exists lead anyone ?

UCMINISTRIES ‎1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. How can you be preserved if you have ceased to exist. Unless you exist.

UCMINISTRIES ‎1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. the watchtower position is NO HOPE!! The Bible however does offer hope. The dead do not cease but live on. So on the day of resurrection people who knew each other in this life will be reunited.

Saeed (WATCHTOWER) But you fail to see that holding unto this view also limits God’s power of resurrection.

UCMINISTRIES Mat 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. THIS DOES NOT SOUND LIKE A RECREATION DOES IT.

At each and every stage scripture holds out the hope that death has been conquered and the soul survives what has died.  Hope that is rejected by the Watchtower.

1 Cor 14: 33 For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints

LETS RECOUNT:

It also placed God in a position where he creates EVIL only to once again extinguish it.

Sinner no 1 no longer exists So God creates sinner no 2 just to punish him for the sins of no 1
God judges two people for one mans sins God by recreating sinners makes himself the author and finisher of SIN
This makes God  anunjust God So one man runs the race to win something he can never hope to win.  And another will be rewarded for something they never ran.
This means the actual sinner can never be held accountable for their own deeds good or bad Someone else becomes accountable who has never sinned. Whose only failure is to be created by God in someone else’s image?

Can you see the absolute foolishness of the Watchtowers teaching in this matter? 

Yet I doubt that the average Watchtower member has actually sat down and came to this realisation.   Personal accountability is what the Bible teaches.  That means the soul of the person who dies has to live on.  Otherwise the resurrection and the day of judgement becomes meaningless and trivial obsolescent joke.

For further Source material : Watchtowers Societies ever-changing views on who is going to be resurrected   

 Watchtower Society and Plagiarism      

 What keeps Watchtower members in the society  

 Birthdays 

Watchtower apologetics discusion on Birthdays 

Christmas, Birthdays & Flag Salute and weddings

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Comments
  1. Watchtower member number 2 speaks up to couch their lying theology in such glorious words. The fundemental issue is the rejection of an immortal soul. Now read on

    Ian Paul G
    ” I sort of understand your concern about the “clone thing” you mentioned earlier, because it also crossed my own mind once upon a time, many years ago. I apologise for not addressing this in my earlier comments. Anyway, it is likely that we both believe that God knows us more than we know ourselves, so if we die he remembers every single detail. We forget things, but God’s memory is perfect to the absolute degree. So, when he ressurects the dead it will be as if they never died, the one ressurected will feel as though their new life is continuose from the one that ended, the only difference being is that God will not ressurect the gross imperfections that cause us much suffering, for this we should all be grateful. The dead will not be aware of how long they were dead for, just like sleeping. I am not expecting you to agree with all that I am telling you, but I hope that I have clarified my beliefs. You made an interesting point in your last comment, those who do not exist cannot be ressurected. The truth is those who are going to ressurected are alive in God’s vast memory, to him they still exist, because he is certain that they will live again. Whatever you believe, you have my respect, I hope I have made this point clearer for you. Good Night, (UK) I hope we get the chance to chat again.”

    The trouble is a LIE is still a LIE. Ian even believes that the clone is made to believe by God that he is the origional. This further betrayes God as a liar and a fraud, Either a person is the origional or there is no GOOD NEWS. My memory of another person, no matter how good it is, is still not the origional person. So it is with God. No matter how perfect, it is not the same as the origional. The sad part is the level of delusion that goes into this deception.

  2. In response to a question Saeed responds with this comment:

    Alahad Saeed Did Jesus resurrect himself?
    John 5:19 “Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself…”

    Gal 1:1 “…but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead)

    Acts 2:24 “But God hath raised Him up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.”

    Notice the use of selected verses to try and back up that Jesus was unable to resurect himself. Because how can someone who has ceased to exist resurect himself. Because If we can prove that Jesus resurected himself , then we have proven that death of the Body does not equate to the death of the soul.

    Jhn 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

    Jesus makes it clear. THAT HE LAYS DOWN HIS LIFE AND ” I HAVE POWER TO TAKE IT AGAIN”.

    Does this not prove that Jesus having surrended his physical body to death lived on after he died, was therefore in a position to raise it again?

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