Talks on Islam: They do not believe in Original sin

Posted: November 3, 2010 in Islam, Israel
Tags: ,

In another article which starts by asking a question from a supposed Christian.

Question: 

I am a Christian and have always wondered about the story of Jesus. My Mum says he died on the cross and then came back to live, which is very confusing. Islam says he never died but was raised up to heaven.

Now I have the suspicion that the question was never asked by a Christian because any Christian would know the answer.  The cross and the resurrection would not be a source of confusion.  The whole of scripture points to the central pivotal point that the messiah would indeed be crucified and rise from the dead  (Is 53)

This is the answer Islam gives to this question:

Answer:

“Muslims hold that there is no such thing as Original Sin. So, God had no reason to become a human and die on the cross. Even if there were something called Original Sin, Muslims do not see how God could be so helpless as to atone for that sin by dying on the cross.

 The Christians would answer:

 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16)

  Did God really love the world so much… so much that He decided to sacrifice even His son, His only begotten son, to save the world from Original Sin? Christians would say, Yes.”

UNLESS YOU UNDERSTAND GENESIS  YOU  WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND WHY THERE IS A NEED FOR AN ATONEMENT.  GENESIS IS THE KEY THAT UNLOCKS THE REST OF THE BIBLE.  REJECT THE KEY AND YOU WILL BE CLUELESS. 

 Reject the key and you will be clueless:

 Islam has no concept of righteousness, Inherent sin, or that sin must be punished.  The fall of mankind and the need to restore mankind from that fall.  The consequences of that fall.  Their unbelief has therefore blinded them to their fallen state.  They know the truth but they refuse to believe it. Maybe that is why Genesis is attack by so many  for  it holds the foundational priciples to all that follows.

 Yet even in their own teachings they include a similar teaching of Adam in the garden.  Which is evident that someone read the Bible, but did not understand the full significance of what took place.

 

From the Koran    Chapter[ 2. AL-BAQARA (THE COW) Verses[ 35-36 ]  or pronounced  ( Surat Al-Baqarah (The Cow)    Revealed[ MADINA

Sahih International

And We said, “O Adam, dwell, you and your wife, in Paradise and eat therefrom in [ease and] abundance from wherever you will. But do not approach this tree, lest you be among the wrongdoers.”

 Muhsin Khan

And We said: “O Adam! Dwell you and your wife in the Paradise and eat both of you freely with pleasure and delight of things therein as wherever you will, but come not near this tree or you both will be of the Zalimun (wrong-doers).”

 Sahih International

But Satan caused them to slip out of it and removed them from that [condition] in which they had been. And We said, “Go down, [all of you], as enemies to one another, and you will have upon the earth a place of settlement and provision for a time.”

Muhsin Khan

Then the Shaitan (Satan) made them slip there from (the Paradise), and got them out from that in which they were. We said: “Get you down, all, with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be a dwelling place for you and an enjoyment for a time.”

  It saysgot them out from that in which they were“,  It shows that a change had taken place.  But the writer did not know or understand the significance of what took place.  Further more Genesis goes into a lot more detail.  Showing clearly where the Koran got its ideas from.  Genesis is the source material from which the Koran borrowed its ideas from.

 Gen 2: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die

 DEATH WAS PASSED ON:

Death and decay was never meant to be the way for Gods creation.  But sin entered and with it decays sickness and death.

Now we know that Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden tree.  Physically they did not die, but something had.  Physically they were to eventually die, but what had died the moment they partook of the forbidden fruit.  There died spiritually in the sense they became alienated from God and the life of God.  Rebellion had entered the human nature.  That nature was passed onto their sons. We see this clearly when Cain killed his brother Abel.  Islam may reject the idea of a final sacrifice and yet it was God who provided the first sacrifice in the form of Skins upon which Adam and Eve could clothe their nakedness.

 Rom 8: 20 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

 Now it is clear from the Genesis account that something had transpired upon which the whole of creation had been physically changed.  Death disease has entered in.  Basically nothing has worked right since then.  Unless we understand Genesis in the context of what the Bible teaches.  You will never understand the rest of the Bible.  You will never understand that Justice requires a just punishment.  Life for a life.  This concept is followed all the way through the Bible.  Abels blood sacrifice was accepted.  Abraham offering up Isaac when it came the time a ram was found to offer up instead.  Blood had to be shed for sins.  The whole of the First five books with all the detailed rituals of sacrifices where not there fun.  It is there so we might learn that sin requires atonement.  Sin must be paid for, which means something had to die to achieve it.

 Here again from an article titled CONCEPT OF ANIMAL SACRIFICE IN ISLAM

 “Islam, however, broke away from this longstanding tradition of appeasing an “angry god” and instead demanded personal sacrifice and submission as the only way to die before death and reach “fana’” or “extinction in Allah.” The notion of “vicarious atonement of sin” (absolving one’s sins through the blood of another) is nowhere to be found in the Qur’an. Neither is the idea of gaining favor by offering the life of another to Allah. In Islam, all that is demanded as a sacrifice is one’s personal willingness to submit one’s ego and individual will to Allah”

 THEY HOPE TO ATONE FOR THEIR OWN SINS:

So we see they reject clear Biblical teaching.  In the hope that they can atone for their own sins.  The term “angry god” is misleading as it shows the clear lack of understanding of justice.  What Judge allows the guilty to go free?  Would that be unrighteous?  If God is righteous would he not demand a righteous conviction for sin?  How could the sinner pay such a sin?  The reality is that if we tried to pay for our own sins then the conviction is hell.   You cannot have a righteous judge without a righteous conviction.

 But if someone pays the price for the convicted then justice would be satisfied.  Unfortunately Islam rejects this notion and thus rejects the value God gives to sin.  They must also reject the righteousness of God.

 Islam’s answer to ritualistic sacrifice.  And it has nothing to do with atonement.

 That is to say, the underlying implication of Islam’s attitude toward ritual slaughter is not that of blood atonement, or seeking favor with Allah through another’s death, but rather, the act of thanking Allah for one’s sustenance and the personal sacrifice of sharing one’s possessions and valuable food with one’s fellow humans. The ritual itself is NOT the sacrifice. It is merely a method of killing where the individuals kill as quickly as possible and acknowledge that only Allah has the right to take a life and that they do so as a humble member of Allah’s creation in need of sustenance just like every other species in Allah’s creation

 It is clear then that they understand the significance but don’t understand the need.  In Islam they kill ritualistically as a means to say thanks for their food. So unless you have a concept that sin must be punished and something or someone has to take the punishment, they will never see the reality of the need for an atonement.

 The article continues by saying.

 “As God is Just, He would not punish the innocent to save the sinners. Third, the so-called Original Sin cannot be such a problem for the Almighty God that He is compelled to sacrifice “His own Son.” He could very well cancel that sin or He could simply demand an atonement from the sinful or at least ask for sincere repentance from them.  Indeed, there was no need for God to subject His Son to the terrible torture he is said to have undergone, as portrayed in Mel Gibson’s The Passion of the Christ, for instance.”

 So it is not that they are ignorant of what is demanded.  They simply reject what is said. The statement, “ He would not punish the innocent to save the sinners”  If there is to be no punishment, then the sinner can only pay for his own sin.  Again the conviction is hell.  A price no one can pay for the cost is eternal.

 Rom 10: 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

 Moslems like the Jews seek to establish their own righteousness and therefore will not submit to the righteousness of God.  They want their own righteousness and reject the righteousness that God will give.

 Prov 11:2 -4  For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. The righteousness of the upright shall deliver them: but transgressors shall be taken in [their own] naughtiness. For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

 God is offering so much more.  A ceasing from our own striving to please God and an acceptance into his family as sons and daughters.

 Rom 10: 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

 Mat 1: 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

How can Jesus save his people from their sins?  With what measure would he achieve this?  But then if you hope to satisfy Gods demands by your own achievements then you will never seek an answer to such questions.

 The witness from Genesis  to Revelation which  is one consistent harmonious voice of a God who is righteous.  A God who demands perfect obedience.  Man despite all his actions fails time after time.  Only God both as a judge and advocate is able to supply the answer and the provision.

 

Advertisements
Comments
  1. dinopak says:

    A very intriguing article. Though as a Muslim I want to understand this concept of Jesus dying for the sins of the followers.

    If Jesus did die for their sins, that means that all Christians are liberated from the hardships that come upon a regular believer from the Lord Almighty, they should not have pain and suffering and misery, because their sins are washed away.

    Yet, Christian mothers go into painful labor, Christians commit suicide, Christians get depressed, Christians are killed and murdered by fellow Christians. Christians are sentenced for their ‘crimes’.

    I can believe that those who commit crimes cannot be Christians. Alright, but what about those Christians who get diseases and die in plagues and/or wars, or those who are suffering from other diseases.

    What is that suffering about? Is it because the Christian Lord is unjustified for some reason? that He pleases to hurt His creation.

  2. I agree that those who commit crimes cannot be Christians. It is not that God simply has some desire to inflict or hurt his creation. But that creation was changed when sin entered the world. We don’t see SIN as God does. Even though the world is still beautiful there is that something which says things don’t work right. There is killing and being killed. We use up resources. The earth is in turmoil, earthquakes, tornadoes and countless natural disasters. That is not how God made it, but that is how it became.

    God is absolute holiness and righteousness. He does nothing based on anger as we think of anger. Which is often on the spur of the moment and is irrational, But according to his divine nature . SIN must be punished. In the same way as a criminal who breaks the law is brought and tried and if found guilty and is sentenced. We call that the rule of law. Adam was the vice region of this planet. When he sinned the whole lot went down.

    There is no injustice with God because he will judge right according to his nature. God does not promise that we will not have troubles in this life because this life is not the end of the journey but the interlude before we step out into eternity. God has a whole bigger plan than the one we see here. Many Americans preachers have presented a gospel that is just what you have described. A gospel of ease prosperity and health. A gospel that says nothing bad will ever happen and your bank account will always be full. Such a gospel does not exist in the Bible.

    But people say yes to this American prosperity Gospel not because they want Gods help but they want to use God to benefit themselves. In which case their motives for following God are hardly honest.

    What God wants is for people to follow him out of a pure heart. We choose to follow him because we see the need in ourselves and only God can fix that need. But we choose to follow despite whatever happens in this world.

    Mat 7: 13- Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

    The gospel does not promise that a Christian will not have troubles in this life but does promise a whole lot better in the life to come. It starts here NOW, but it finishes when we reach home. Our bodies decay because the earth and everything on it is still subject to the original judgement. Everything lives decays and dies. That’s the order of this present situation.

    Eph 1: 14 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

    The idea behind this verse is that a buyer comes along. Buys a product and with provision that later he will send his servants to collect his goods. The goods are usually marked with a seal to let everyone know the property now belongs to the buyer. This verse is the same thing. As Christians we have been bought and paid for by God. We are his property. He has promised that what he has bought will be collected at a future date. Death is but a veil we pass through but the hope and reality starts now. Difficulties are not a hindrance to faith but an opportunity to grow in our faith. It helps us to trust and become confident that what God has promise he will fulfill.

    We have received in part but one day we will receive in full. That is the promise. Some people see this life as the end of the journey. For Christians we are simply pilgrims on our way home and home is where the real journey begins.

    The best way I think I can put it is that what we see here is not the final scene in Gods plan of redemption but the path towards the completed goal. One day even the earth will be changed. So that the whole of creation will be restored to its perfect original state. Because even death cannot separate us from God we are promised a new glorified body which is altogether different from the one we have now. One that will not age decay or die.

    I hope this helps a little to understand.

  3. dinopak says:

    Interesting, I would like to understand the following “But that creation was changed when sin entered the world. We don’t see SIN as God does.”

    As far as I understand what you are trying to say is that When Eve committed the sin the creation of God changed all together (the change not intended by God originally). So when the sin is completely removed, why don’t the humans go back to being the perfect beings

    • To understand the atonement you have to understand who God is and what is the nature of God. God never works contary to his nature. God nature is the rule of Law. We often as Christians sing about the love of God but rarely do we sing about the law of God. This world works according to certain laws of physics, those laws are an extention of Gods nature. Now God choosed to work to restore mankind according to his nature and principles. That is why so much detail is given in the Old Testament about his laws and commandments. For in restoring mankind God is also teaching makind about Gods own nature. That means when wrong doing takes place Gods nature demands an equal judgement. God will not and cannot go against this. So hence the need for something to be judged. A judgement which man cannot pay. For that would be eternity seperated from the goodness of God. But God is also a God of love and so in accordance with his own nature a plan was devised to redeem man from the consequences of the fall and mans own personal sin. Jesus death on the cross was established according to the rule of law. The prefect dies for the imperfect. In the book of hebrews we are told’

      Heb 9: 16- For where a testament [is], there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament [is] of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. Whereupon neither the first [testament] was dedicated without blood. Saying, This [is] the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

      This was the last will and testament of the Lord Jesus Christ. THose who become the seed of Christ, become benifactors of that last will and testament. Seed are all those who enter into salvation through Christ.

      Thus Gods is satisfied both according to his law and his love. Because sin has been judged. The perfect dying for the guilty. The guilty are released, not to continue to sin but to recieve Gods laws written in their hearts and minds. Just as God promised that he would. under a new and better covenant. So that the guilty will now grow to love the laws of God and thus fulfill what God requires. However if one chooses to face the final judgement on their own merits that is for them to decide. God will not overule because God has given makind a free will. But God has clealry established under his rule of law what will happen. So there can be no excuse. So you see the Gods nature is righteous and that righteounsess works upon the principles of law. Only once that law was satisfied could grace begin a work in the lives of those who ask and recieve it.

  4. I think you posted twice and I did not realise it.

    When sin is finally removed creation will be restored. In fact it will be better. I think we will all agree that the world as it stands now is not quite the world of peace and traquility that God expressed in Genesis.

    Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.

    This world is not a good place. There is still alot about it that is. but fundementaly its all wrong. Hardly the place that says what he has created was good. Something fundementaly was changed.

    Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

    God has decided not to take Christians out of this world because we are to serve as witnesses to other of the grace of God.

    But in order to restore the earth. This will mean a complete upheaval of creation.

    Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

    What do you do with those who reject God. Sin will not be allowed to continue beyond that point. So God in his grace allows things to continue so that people have the the right to choose whom they will serve. But there will come a time that this process will take place. All that has been promised will be fullfilled.

  5. dinopak says:

    Well for once I don’t believe in ‘Jesus dying on the cross’ enough evidence is there to prove it, even in the bible.

    I will reply in detail about your detailed reply, but I guess my work will be cut short if I show you the following.

    Part 1

    Part 2

    I have many more questions about it. Will ask them steadily.

    Regards

  6. Mat 15: 24-25 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

    That was the mission of Jesus. He did not come for the righteous but to those who are lost. That is why the women recognised her need at that point and the one who could meet it. Which is why Jesus is a saviour. We are all in need of someone to save us from our sins.

    In Christianity we believe man is a triune being. Body soul and Spirit. Does Islam have such a concept.

    The symbolism of Jonah who was three days in the belly of the whale. Now agreed that Jonah was alive. But Jesus physical body was dead. The dear man in the white turban has a problem in so far as he has only a one dimensional level. He assumes that once the body is dead that’s it. No!

    A close look at what happened showed that Jesus body did indeed die. As a Roman soldier confirmed this by piercing his side with a spear. His body was dead all right. But Jesus also physically released his spirit into the safe keeping of his father. Which he alone had the power to do? So his dead was the voluntary releasing of his spirit into the safe keeping of his father.

    Luke 23: 46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

    The word to “commend “ is to deposit or place for safe keeping. His soul we are told entered hell to preach to the spirits in hell. What he is said we are not told

    1 Pet 3: 18-20 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

    Jesus prayer in the garden.

    Jesus knew from the beginning that he was destined for the cross. Here is part of a prophecy from is 53 which speaks directly to the suffering messiah.

    Isa 53:5 -9 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. And he made HIS GRAVE WITH THE WICKED, AND WITH THE RICH IN HIS DEATH; BECAUSE HE HAD DONE NO VIOLENCE, NEITHER WAS ANY DECEIT IN HIS MOUTH.

    This was something he had no control over. Yet as prophecy has declared Jesus was numbered with the criminals and was buried with the rich in his death.
    This is the important bit

    Isa 53:1012 Yet it pleased the LORD TO BRUISE HIM; he hath PUT HIM TO GRIEF: when thou shalt MAKE HIS SOUL AN OFFERING FOR SIN, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall SEE OF THE TRAVAIL OF HIS SOUL, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath POURED OUT HIS SOUL UNTO DEATH: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

    That is the prophecy and Jesus is the fulfilment of what took place. Yet even though he physically died he would see his seed ( protetgy) He would see those who were lost sheep saved. The death of the body is not the end of the person. Which is why I believe in life after death. The person who I am lives on. The question as a Christian is were do we go. How does Islam percieve life after death?

    • dinopak says:

      First of all apologies for a delayed reply I had some business to take care of. Now let me take it slow and steady with what you have said. You yourself claimed that ‘God’s nature is rule of law’. Now if that is true, explain to me the following.

      1) If Jesus did die on the cross (and his soul departed) he must have been buried somewhere in the Middle East, whereas I haven’t heard any tradition of his burial.

      2) Don’t you think if Jesus is asking for bread to eat and wine to drink, it suggests he is still alive? What about the research carried out by the doctors which recommend the fact that Jesus was taken alive from the cross (as this guy in the white turban is telling about). Doesn’t it say in the bible that water and blood came gushing out (means the blood was flowing)

      3) The sign of Jonah was that he was taken out from the fishes belly ‘alive’ not dead

      4) Most importantly, Jesus ‘PROMISED’ to find all the lost sheep of Israel. But in the meanwhile he was crucified. Is it a Godly thing in Christianity to not fulfill a promise?

      Kindly explain this to me I will be seeking more information later.

      Thank you

  7. The other important thing is that the sacrificial lamb was not supposed to be a willing victim. Ie. a lamb did not show up at the door of the priest begging to be slaughtered. It was forcible taken shared and placed on the alter with the sole intention of being killed.

    Luk 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

    Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

    Unlike the rest of us. Jesus came to be the perfect son. Living in obedience to what his father willed. The sacrifical lamb had to be ritualistically religiously and perfect in all its ways. So Jesus as a human person learned to be obedient. Whilst Adam failed to be obedient Jesus as the second Adam and the new head of a redeemed mankind he would suceed.

  8. Seen the second part. The gentleman deliberately misses out the part of Jesus being speared by a Roman spear. The Romans were neither stupid nor ignorant about how to kill a person. The final blow from a spear would have finished any normal person. Applying a balm to a corpse would not revive him.
    The loss of blood, the trauma, and the dehydration would have been a challenge to even a modern Emergency room. A herbal balm would not have replaced the loss of blood.

    Further more after the body was wrapped and placed in the tomb. The tomb was sealed and guarded by Roman soldiers. Any attempt by any of the disciples to reach the Body to rejuvenate him would have been met with an arm guard.

    The tomb was sealed with the seal and a rock was placed over the enterance to seal it. So not only could someone not get in, but it was imposible to get out. The rich do not have secret side doors for relatives to come and go. However in the end Jesus did not need for someone to open the door for him to get out. It was opened so that people could look in a see he had indeed risen.

    Plus we also have the witness of his disciples who not only had they ran away but were in hiding from the authorities. Dishearten they were for returning to their old jobs.

    The gentlemen ask who said he gave up the ghost. We know that both the apostle and John and his mother were present. Something else he fails to mention. There were also the Roman soldiers who stood about. I am sorry to say that he shows his ignorance by missing out vital key evidence. Like Jesus refuses to be seen, and yet we are told that he was seen of about

    Acts 1: 3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

    1 Cor 15: 4-6 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep

    Acts 1: 9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

    The New Testament goes into a lot of detail to show and prove that Jesus did indeed die and was resurrected. There are other proofs which I will share with you in due course.

  9. dinopak says:

    I believe you should review the videos I sent you, as he does talks about the ‘piercing’ of the body and that water and blood rushes out of it.

    However you missed the part where he tells that Jesus was taken off the cross fairly early and his legs were also spared (all of which was due to a reason)

    • I will check again. Obviously I missed that part. However We know the bodies were taken down early because of Jewish custom of being the Sabbath. It is unlikely a special deal was attained as the Roman soldier in question did indeed pierce his body with a spear. THis was done to confirm that he was indeed dead.

      If ths speaker acknowledges this then we can be assured that Jesus was indeed dead. No amount of ointment would bring a corpse back from the dead.

      Now the question is we have the facts as presented by those who were there. The breaking of the legs was done to the other too to expedite death. Being unable to lift themselves by their feet in order to breathe they would asphyxiate very quickly. But this is all common knowledge.

      The speaker does assume that this ointment which was used purly for burial purposes, would somehow revive and heal a corpse. How does ointment surply blood, heal large incisional wounds. Clealry it would not.

  10. The question of burial? We have the record of those which were present who buried his body. So we know it was local. Today Jerusalem of Jesus day lies some 60 feet or so below modern Jerusalem. Despite the local tourist hotspots we cannot say where exactly.

    John 19:28- After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the SCRIPTURE MIGHT BE FULFILLED, SAITH, I THIRST. Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put [it] upon hyssop, and put [it] to his mouth. When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

    Psalms 69: 21 They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.

    Crucifixion by the very method meant that in order to breathe you had to press upwards on the crucified legs to take a breath. Otherwise you become asphyxiated and die. Hence the broken legs. (already mentioned) As Jesus was hanging limp, this would mean that he was unable to breathe. Death would occur within a short time. So even if Jesus was unconscious he would asphyxiate and die.

    Just for arguments sake just say Jesus was still alive. The fact that Roman soldiers understood the possibility of possum he pierced his side. Now would a person heavily traumatised, whipped, had both his hands and feet pierced, loss of blood and now asphyxiate survive a Roman spear? Upon which both blood and water came out. Something was going on medically

    John 19: 34-34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. And he that saw [it] bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.

    Unfortunately as I am not medically trained I have to pass this over to those who are qualified. This is what one report has to say on the matter.

    “There are several medical authorities that have done research on the crucifixion. One is Dr. C. Truman Davis, in the state of Arizona. He is a medical doctor who has performed meticulous study of the crucifixion from a medical perspective. Here he gives the effect of the Roman flogging: “The heavy whip is brought down with full force again and again across (a person’s) shoulders, back and legs. At first, the heavy thongs cut through the skin only. Then, as the blows continue, they cut deeper into the subcutalleous tissues, producing first an oozing of blood from the capillaries and veins of the skin, and finally spurting arterial bleeding from vessels in the underlying muscles. The small balls of lead first produce large, deep bruises, which the others cut wide open. Finally, the skin of the back is hanging in long ribbons, and the entire area is an unrecognizable mass of torn, bleeding tissue.”

    Many people would die just from the whipping alone. After Jesus was whipped, they took Him out to the execution area and drove spikes into His wrists and His feet. It says that late that Friday afternoon they broke the legs of the two thieves hanging with Jesus, but they did not break His legs. He was on the cross and they’d already acknowledged Him being dead. Now the Roman executioners speared Jesus. This was the method by which an executioner checked to see if a still victim was in fact dead. If blood and pericardial fluid came out as in Jesus’ case, it was an indication of death and there was no need for the legs to be broken to hasten death so that the cross could re-used for the next victim. Eyewitness accounts said blood and water came out separated – indicating Jesus was already dead.”

    “Ahmed Deedat, in his booklet “Crucifixion or Cruci-Fiction,” appealed to this phenomenon (the excretion of blood and pericardial fluid coming out) as evidence that Christ was still alive. He supports this in his writing, by an appeal to an article in the Thinkers Digest 1949, by an anesthesiologist. Today, there is more medical research by various people in this area.

    To comment on Deedat’s error: first, from a scholastic viewpoint: many medical and university or varsity libraries that once carried this journal, no longer do so. It is considered by many in the medical field to be behind the medical times.

    Second, from a medical viewpoint: a wound of the type inflicted on Jesus, if the person were still alive, would not bleed out the wound opening but bleed into the chest cavity, causing an internal hemorrhage. At the aperture of the wound, the blood would be barely oozing from the opening. For a spear to form a perfect channel that would allow the blood and serum to flow out the spear wound is next to impossible. The massive internal damage done to a person under crucifixion together with spearing in the area near the heart, would cause death almost immediately. The State of Massachusetts General Hospital, performed over a period of years, research on people who died of a ruptured heart. Normally, a heart has 20 cc’s of pericardial fluid. When a person dies of a ruptured heart, there is more than 500 cc’s of pericardial fluid, and it would come out in the form of a fluid and clotted blood. Perhaps this is what was viewed when Christ was stabbed by the spear thrust.”

    So it is unlikely a normal person under normal conditions would survive being speared. In a person heavily traumatized before hand, with massive loss of blood and already unconscious there is no questions he indeed die on that cross. The facts are well laid out.

  11. HERE IS SOME MORE INFORMATION ON THIS SUBJECT.

    Crucifixion of Jesus. Randall Niles explores the historical record surrounding this Roman form of torture and capital punishment.

    Crucifixion typically began with a scourging (or flogging) of the victims back. The Romans used a whip called a flagrum, which consisted of small pieces of bone and metal attached to a number of leather strands. The number of blows given to Jesus is not recorded; however, the number of blows in Jewish law was 39 (one less than the 40 called for in the Torah, to prevent an accidental counting error). During the scourging, the skin was ripped from the back, exposing a bloody mass of tissue and bone. Extreme blood loss occurred, often causing death, or at least unconsciousness. In addition to the flogging, Jesus faced severe beating and torment by the Roman soldiers, including the plucking of His beard and the piercing of His scalp with a crown of thorns.

    After the flogging, the victim was often forced to carry his own crossbar, or patibulum, to the execution site. The patibulum could easily weigh 100 pounds. In the case of Jesus, the record shows that he may have carried His patibulum the distance of over two football fields. In a weak and tormented state, its no wonder that Jesus needed a great deal of assistance. Once the victim arrived at the execution site, the patibulum was put on the ground and the victim was forced to lie on it. Spikes about 7 inches long and 3/8 of an inch in diameter were driven into the wrists. The spikes would hit the area of the median nerve, causing shocks of pain up the arms to the shoulders and neck. Already standing at the crucifixion site would be the 7-foot-tall post, called a stipes. In the center of the stipes was a crude wooden seat that offered minimal support for the victim. The patibulum was then lifted on to the stipes, and the victims body was awkwardly turned on the seat so the feet could be nailed to the stipes. At this point, there was tremendous strain put on the wrists, arms and shoulders, resulting in dislocation at the shoulder and elbow joints.

    The position of the nailed body held the victims rib cage in a fixed position, which made it extremely difficult to exhale, and impossible to take a full breath. Having suffered from the scourging, the beatings, and the walk with the patibulum, Jesus was described as extremely weak and dehydrated. He was probably losing significant amounts of blood. As time passed, the loss of blood and lack of oxygen would cause severe cramps, spasmodic contractions, and probably unconsciousness.

    Ultimately, the mechanism of death in crucifixion was suffocation. To breathe, the victim was forced to push up on his feet to allow for inflation of the lungs. As the body weakened and pain in the feet and legs became unbearable, the victim was forced to trade breathing for pain and exhaustion. Eventually, the victim would succumb in this way, becoming utterly exhausted or lapsing into unconsciousness so that he could no longer lift his body off the stipes and inflate his lungs. Due to the shallow breathing, the victims lungs would begin to collapse in areas, probably causing hypoxia. Due to the loss of blood from the scourging, the victim probably formed a respiratory acidosis, resulting in an increased strain on the heart, which beats faster to compensate. Fluid would also build up in the lungs. Under the stress of hypoxia and acidosis, the heart would eventually fail.

    The crucifixion accounts of Jesus Christ are in entire agreement with the customs and practices of the Romans in that period. The evidence for Christs horrible and painful death is unquestioned by todays mainstream scholars. The only dispute is the nature and character of the criminal Jesus Christ. Look at the record yourself — Even with all the pain, Jesus thought of others rather than himself. His first words from the cross were, “Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do” (Luke 23:34). He thought of His mother, who stood by the cross weeping, and asked his beloved disciple John to take care of her. On either side of Jesus were two thieves executed at the same time. When one of them accepted Jesus as Lord, Jesus shared with him, “Today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43). Finally, Jesus expressed his complete surrender to the will of God as He said, “It is finished” (John 19:30).

  12. If anyone is wondering what happened to a couple of videos which I posted on testimonies by a former Moslem. Certain discrepancies have arisen. Which has caused me to remove them
    Here is a statement by the university where Dr Ergun Caner works

    “The following is the statement that Liberty University has released concerning their investigation of Dr. Ergun Caner. It seems that Liberty is moving in a direction to say nothing further. In that vein we at SBC Today will not discuss this issue any further. This matter is behind us and we praise God that Dr. Caner is exonerated as he is retained at Liberty on faculty.”

    “After a thorough and exhaustive review of Dr. Ergun Caner’s public statements, a committee consisting of four members of Liberty University’s Board of Trustees has concluded that Dr. Caner has made factual statements that are self-contradictory. However, the committee found no evidence to suggest that Dr. Caner was not a Muslim who converted to Christianity as a teenager, but, instead, found discrepancies related to matters such as dates, names and places of residence. Dr. Caner has cooperated with the board committee and has apologized for the discrepancies and misstatements that led to this review. Dr. Caner’s current contractual term as Dean of Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary expires on June, 30, 2010. Dr. Caner will no longer serve as Dean of Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary. The university has offered, and Dr. Caner has accepted, an employment contract for the 2010-2011 academic year. Dr. Caner will remain on the faculty of Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary as a professor.“

    However I personally cannot use a video which may contain discrepancies. The truth matters

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s